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from Interviews/Testimonials
An Ex-Gay Man Describes the
Change Process: Gordon Opp
What can a man expect from the change process? With disarming candor, Gordon Opp
describes the fulfillment he found, as well as the lessons--sometimes very
painful---he learned along the way. He is interviewed here by NARTH Executive
Director, Joseph Nicolosi.
J.N.: Gordon, thanks very much for offering to share your story. Let's go
right ahead and run through the basics of your life. You've been president of the
Credit Bureau of Lincoln, Nebraska for 21 years, and married for 20 years now.
You're about to complete your master's degree in counseling, and for quite some
time, you've run a support group for men transitioning out of homosexuality.
When did you first think you might be struggling with homosexuality?
G.O.: I think it was in junior high school that I recognized that I had
attractions for the guys instead of the girls, and it gave me a lot of anxiety.
There was nobody to talk to in those days, so I just kind of hid it.
J.N.: Back then you didn't have a "Project 10" school counselor who would
affirm you as gay, and introduce you to the gay community.
G.O.: Right, and I'm glad for that. At least I wasn't pushed into thinking
that it wasn't a problem. I was a Christian and I had faith, and I believed in
morality. So I kept myself from acting out with another guy until I was 21. In
fact, I made it through three years of college without acting out. Then, as with
most homosexuals, my first sexual experience was unbelievably... it's like you've
been on a desert for two weeks without water, and all of a sudden you come upon
an oasis. It's extremely compelling that way.
I dabbled in the gay life from age 21 to 25, and during that time I had a lot of
one-night stands. I did the "park scene," and I had a few relationships--maybe
three--that lasted a few months. During that time I was extremely depressed,
kind of living a double life. Also, I never was satisfied or fulfilled in a
relationship for any length of time. Even with men that were many times more
attractive than I, I would lose interest after awhile. But I didn't really
understand the dynamics at that time.
J.N.: What were the dynamics?
G.O.: Right now looking back, I can see what homosexuality is--especially in
my life, although everybody's experience is a little bit different.
J.N.: What is homosexuality in your life?
G.O.: It is a way to meet certain unfulfilled needs with sex.
J.N.: What kinds of needs?
G.O.: Needs for acceptance...feeling like one of the guys...for compassion and
understanding from men. In fact it's interesting, even now, the remaining
homosexual desires that I have, I realize have so little to do with sex. It's
like I look at a guy, and if I go so far as thinking what he would look like
without clothes on--at this time in my life, such a thought would be disgusting
to me. But it's something else I'm feeling... I wish he would come over and shake
my hand and talk to me and give me some kind of attention.
But looking back to when I was a young man, I didn't understand those dynamics.
Today, I see that the feelings--and how they transform when I understand them--are
very much like a magic act. It's very intriguing when you see somebody perform a
magic trick; you want to see it over and over again, so you can figure out how
the magician is actually making this thing disappear. But when you fully
understand the feelings--that is, you learn what's behind the trick--it takes away
all the old excitement. Then the attraction isn't "magic" anymore.
J.N.: What is the analogy with homosexuality?
G.O.: That's the way homosexuality is for me. I will look at a man who is
attractive to me and I just can't proceed with pursuing that, because, as you
might say, I "know the trick." That is, I know what the fantasy is. I know
what's behind the illusion. And I have the logical understanding that it's not
going to satisfy--if I did pursue any type of sexual encounter, I know it would
have nothing but negative effect on me. But it's more than that, though.
J.N.: Not just a cognitive awareness.
G.O.: It's more than just a cognitive awareness. It's recognizing that the
whole experience is counterfeit. It's knowing this, based on my own repeated
attempts for four years, to make it work.
In your book, you said Elizabeth Moberly explains that unmet same-sex love needs
are the root of the problem, but then you amplified on that a lot. You described
that same-sex friendships are helpful to meet those needs. I have found that
when I have a close friendship with a straight man who I find attractive, I can
get those needs de-sexualized. I can get them met in a satisfying way.
J.N.: A lot of the men tell me this. They say that their homosexual
attractions or fantasies diminish, or even disappear.
G.O.: Right, they do. They do in many cases. The problem, though, as Dr.
Satinover explains in Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, is when you've
already gotten into a habit pattern. The sexual experience is like taking an
opium drug. It's soothing, its anesthetizing, and it's a "quick fix." This can
make it very difficult to leave homosexuality. When we have sexualized those
emotional needs--when we have already learned to get those needs temporarily met
in a sexual way--we've taken a normal, legitimate, God-given need and met it with
a "drug." Then when you're getting your needs met through a straight relationship
with a nice-looking guy, in a very wholesome relationship, it won't have the
"zing" that the homosexual encounter does. That's one of the things that I've
had to recognize and admit to myself; it wasn't meant to have that kind of zing.
J.N.: That's right, because the zing is artificial, and it won't last. And it
will only create the desire for another, bigger "zing" from yet another partner.
We are beginning to see gay writers admit this, at least indirectly. In Love
Undetectable, Andrew Sullivan says erotic relationships cannot be trusted to
provide enduring love, and it is friends who will be the reliable source of
support and affection.
G.O.: The "zing" is artificial, but it is very compelling, and it is what
keeps a lot of men in the gay life.
J.N.: Exactly. Jeffrey Satinover talks about the neurological pleasure
pathways that get embedded into the brain--actually structurally embedded--and
although you may learn new fantasies on top of the old ones, along with better
ways of meeting your emotional needs, still, you never completely erase the
underlying neurological responsiveness. You can lay new pathways on top of that
underlying one. But many men are having to really struggle with an addictive
pattern.
G.O.: Right. And unfortunately, getting caught up in that habit pattern like
I did, will turn out to be very short-sighted. But the thing that encourages me,
thinking about the brain, is that we don't use very much of our brains...and there
are so many other "highs" that a person can experience. We get trapped in the
idea of thinking that the only way we can enjoy ourselves, or experience any kind
of "high" in life, is the unhealthy way we're used to doing it. I try to
encourage the men I work with to broaden their perspectives. Even though other
experiences might not give them the zing that they're used to, they should go
ahead and pursue healthy male relationships, and also find something different
that they can really put their hearts into.
J.N.: Exactly. And speaking of finding something else to put your heart
into...tell me a little bit about your marriage. You're 46 and you've been married
now for twenty years.
G.O.: Yes. Like I said, I lived in the gay life for about four years until
age 25, but I was very depressed because it just wasn't working for me. I'm from
Nebraska, and I decided to move to California. I figured that would be the best
place to live a gay life, and if that didn't work, perhaps I would find some help
out there.
In California, I met a youth pastor. He was about seven years my senior, married
and with a couple of kids; and without ever having knowledge of your book--it
just wasn't written then--he worked with me in just the way you suggest. Neither
one of us knew what was going on. In fact, he was a nice-looking man who cared
about me, and he saw in me somebody who wanted to do the right thing, but just
didn't know how. I remember sitting in his office and he said, "You may have an
attraction for me, but nothing is ever going to happen, because I am different."
He said, "It doesn't make me feel any different toward you; I'm going to love you
and care about you anyway." His attitude just totally diffused my attraction.
That was the beginning of help for me. I counseled with him for the better part
of a year. During that time I met my future wife and we became really good
friends. Before I married, I wanted to be out of any kind of sexual activity for
at least a year.
J.N.: Was there sexual attraction to her as well?
G.O.: There was no sexual attraction until close to the time we were to be
married. I started thinking, I'm going to be married soon, so I started
thinking about my fiancee more in that way. If I could have counseled myself
back at age 25, I would have given myself a little more help and direction, but
in the end, I would still have encouraged the marriage. I've taken the position
that we are all really heterosexuals, so I do encourage men to get married if I
believe they will honor their commitment. I don't want them to endanger or
disappoint a woman. But if the man takes the commitment seriously and will honor
it above any passing temptations, that is a different matter. I myself am
somewhat of a disciplined person, so that helped.
J.N.: Of course, the woman should know.
G.O.: Absolutely, the woman should know. I told my wife before we were
married. It was a breath of fresh air for her to find someone who would love her
as a friend, and not just want her sexually. So I think that was part of the
strength of our marriage. Today I'm a grandfather. We have three children--two
girls and one son, a 13-year-old boy.
J.N.: What's your family life like now?
G.O.: The first years of my marriage were more a matter of "doing the right
thing." However when you spend so much time with somebody and have children
together and live together, you can't help but learn to really love that person.
Today I love my wife as much, if not more, I believe, than most guys love their
wives. The sexual experience may not be exactly like it is for guys who have
never struggled with homosexual issues, but it is satisfying, and I look forward
to it and it is pleasurable. I would be totally devastated if I lost my wife.
I must say that I've changed not only my behavior, but also the way I think about
myself; I've changed my identity. I'm very comfortable being a husband, father
and now a grandfather.
J.N.: Your children know about your background?
G.O.: Yes. My daughters are 19 and 17, and my 19-year-old is engaged to be
married in August. My relationship with my daughters is awesome. But I think
some of us guys with a homosexual background think maybe we can't be a very good
father to a boy.
J.N.: Yes, especially a boy with a lot of anxieties about his masculinity.
G.O.: So the first two children were girls, and I thought, "Well, the Lord
gave me girls and that's fine, so I don't have to deal with worrying about being
a father to a boy." I tell you, loving little daughters is unbelievably natural
for me. It's one of the most beautiful pleasures in life. It has always been
that way, even as they were growing into their teens. Then my wife wanted a
third child, so we happened to get a boy and he has been an unbelievable
delight. In fact, going into his room at night and tucking him in and telling
him a story or patting him on the back, now that he's a little older, ruffling up
his hair and being a little bit rough with him, it is almost like having someone
do it to me. It's unbelievably constructive--I'm "healing by giving," and I'm so
thankful. It's like having a second chance.
J.N.: You are resolving some of your old needs, by fulfilling them for someone
else. I think this is true for all fathers.
G.O.: I would think so, because everybody has some unmet needs from their
past. I am extremely content in my life. I would not trade my life for any
other. Early on--I have been married twenty years--during the first ten years of
marriage I would occasionally lapse into some depression and I would get pretty
down and feel like I was missing out on something, but for years now, I haven't
struggled with depression at all.
J.N.: Do you know any other ex-gay men who are married? Is there a circle of
support friends?
G.O.: For a number of years I have run a support group with eight or ten guys
in it. Men would come and go, but there is a handful who have also gotten
married and have children, and they are a good support. I can think of one, my
friend Bill, who just told me that his wife is pregnant with their second child,
and he is excited about that. But you know, as you said in your book, other guys
overcoming homosexuality can be good friends, and some of those friendships are
extremely valuable, and I would never want to minimize that. But as far as
healing is concerned, I get a whole lot more from straight guys.
J.N.: From "ever-straights."
G.O.: Right. So there are "ever straights" that I really enjoy being with,
and that's terribly helpful. Then there are the few that are particularly
attractive, and with those guys, I kind of force myself to get to know them well
enough so that they don't intimidate me and give me that feeling of weakness, of
being "less than" them, which could trigger an unwanted attraction on my part.
J.N.: Yes, exactly. That's a very good point. People who are trying to
overcome homosexuality should know that you have learned to push against the
intimidation, especially with good-looking straight guys. You have to get to
know them, to break down some of the mystique.
G.O.: It's really funny when you do, because like I say, I make myself do
that, because somebody will come across my path--maybe I'm on a committee with
them, or whatever--and I notice that my old pattern would be to recoil into
myself and to feel inadequate, and then to begin to notice them. They're a
residual object--an object of attraction from an old way of relating. So instead
I try to get to know them, maybe even touch them with a pat on the back, or a
healthy handshake or something, and get under their skin just a little, and then
all of a sudden I see their weaknesses--this is just a guy, and the mystique is
broken.
J.N.: What you see is their humanness, you see the common element. You see
how you and he really are connected. You break down that tension, and with it,
the fantasy.
G.O.: Somehow, that's what I've felt homosexuality for me has been anyway.
It's like there's this "mysterious male" out there, what is he like? Why don't I
feel like him? And so by getting to know these guys a little more intimately,
that takes that mystique away.
J.N.: That's exactly right. Was there a critical time in your life when you
had an insight that helped you with this understanding?
G.O.: Yes, about ten years ago I was going through a mid-life crisis--I was about 35, 36 years old--and I had three
healthy kids, my business was going fine, we had a nice home, I drove new cars, I
had "made it." At such times, guys ask themselves, "Is this it?" For me the big
question was, "Well I've never really experienced that 'thing' in relation to
men. Have I been missing something?"
The way I had thought to get "that thing" was homosexuality, and my way of
dealing with those remaining feelings in the early years of my marriage had been
to protect myself from attractive men by distancing myself. There would be guys
in my past who would say, "You know, I was just getting to know Gordon and we
were doing things together, and then all of a sudden we just drifted apart. I
don't know what happened." Well, I know what happened. I did not want to make
them a sexual object. I did not want to have the hassle, so I just withdrew, and
there would be a defensive detachment.
There was a guy however--in fact, he is my brother-in-law. We traveled across the country
to pick up an antique car. I began to share with him how I still struggled with unwanted
homosexual thoughts. He knew about my background, but he had just figured, "Well, Gordon
is married and the problem is solved."
He didn't condemn me at all for my feelings. As we drove back home we talked about my
struggles and became good friends. He would not let me detach from him. He kept me
engaged. He just kept at it. He said, "I don't know, I'm no psychologist, but it just
seems right for me to continue to engage you."
Opening up to my brother-in-law helped me out of my mid-life crisis. Relating to him
furthered the emotional healing that I'd already experienced intellectually.
J.N.: Today, would you say today you have no homosexual attractions?
G.O.: No, I wouldn't say that. But the feelings are so different. The way I
would like to explain it is, in the early days, it was like I wore this
sweatshirt that had a great big "H" on the front. That was who I was: the shirt
said, "Homosexual." Now it's kind of like, it's a little business card tucked in
my shirt pocket that is somewhat frayed and dog-eared. Once in awhile I find
myself sticking my hand in there and pulling out that old card, and it bothers me
a little bit, but life goes on beyond that. It's an occasional irritation, but
no longer an obsession. My life is very good today.
J.N.: Your experience tells us a lot about the nature of psychological change.
Whatever a man's difficulty--drug addiction, overeating, alcoholism, low
self-esteem--it is unlikely that change will simply "erase" those old problem
areas. You've made a major emotional shift through insight and new experiences.
But some sex-feelings will recur, and because you understand what they signify,
now they've lost most of their power.
Sometimes, too, a man must simply make a willful decision to put aside the
lingering remnants of the old, unwanted homosexual self, as you did, and commit
himself to moving on and marrying, if that's what he wants in life.
Thanks very much, Gordon, for sharing your life experiences with such eloquence
and honesty.
Updated: 8 February 2008
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