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from Interviews/Testimonials
In This Life, We Struggle:
A Faith-Based Perspective on Healing and Recurrent Temptation
In this interview, Warren Smith of the newspaper Charlotte World speaks to John Paulk--author,
with his wife Anne, of the autobiography Love Won Out. The full-text version of this article was
published in Charlotte World on August 31, 2001, p.3; reprinted by permission.)
In the past decade, no one has been more "out" about his life as a homosexual and his departure
from the homosexual lifestyle than John Paulk. John's story is a spectacular one, and it is made even
more spectacular by the fact that his wife is a former lesbian. But a year ago, while serving as a
staff member of Focus on the Family and a board member of the ex-gay ministry Exodus
International, Paulk was seen in a gay bar in Washington, DC.
This began a time of reflection and healing for Paulk that he shared with the ex-gay movement in
a moving presentation earlier this month at the Exodus International conference in North Carolina.
Just days after that presentation, Charlotte World
publisher Warren Smith traveled to Colorado Springs to visit with Paulk at the headquarters of Focus on the Family. They spoke candidly
about the past year of Paulk's life, his presentation at the Exodus Conference, and the state of the
ex-gay movement.
Warren Smith: John, as we are sitting here in Colorado Springs at the Focus on the Family
headquarters, you are just now recovering from your travels to North Carolina to the Exodus
conference. What do you think happened at that Exodus conference that may have been new and different for
the homosexual recovery movement in this country, and what do you see happening in that arena
nationwide right now?
John Paulk: This was Exodus' 26th conference and I have been to maybe 13 conferences myself,
so I have been around half the amount of time the movement has been around. I thought the
conference was very different from the others for a few reasons. First, we are maturing as an organization and
as a movement. In the past few years, largely due to the influence of public spokespeople, not
only myself but others, we have been trying to convey a message to not only the Christian church but
the secular society that homosexual recovery is valid and possible. However, in the midst of doing that
I think we have inadvertently distorted our message or had our message distorted.
WS: What do you mean by that?
JP: I think that when you communicate in a media sound bite, and they ask you, "Have you
changed and overcome homosexuality?" it's hard to answer that with a yes or no because sexuality is not
a black or white issue. It runs on a continuum. I don't care who you are, there is a continuum to
sexuality, sexual struggle, sexual temptation, behavior, what have you.
I think what we have done in our movement is to respond the way the media wanted us to
respond by saying, "Yes, I have changed. It's all washed up, and I am done with it, and now it's packaged
and pretty. Here's my wife and two beautiful children."
I think we have realized the failure of this kind of answer. The leaders -- myself included - need
to say that in this life you may struggle, but God can give you victory over struggle. This is the
paradox: that we can live a victorious life in the midst of struggle. And that is what I saw at the
conference. I saw maturity in the answers and the responses that were given by people. I saw more of
a focus on spiritual work in someone's life, not
just behavioral change. The theology that was coming out was what I considered to be more correct.
WS: Speaking of theology, in the movement there has been two strains or streams. One stream
in the homosexual recovery movement believes what you are saying, that sexuality is a continuum,
and that in this life we do struggle, that Jesus offers victory over these struggles, but in this life
the process of sanctification is ongoing. And there are others - often those who come out of a
Pentecostal background - who say that when you're healed, you're healed. There's been some tension in
the movement regarding this
issue, and those on the outside of the movement have exploited this tension, or called attention
to those who at one time said, "I'm healed" and then later stumbled.
JP: I have been on the board of Exodus International for six years. My term just ended last week,
so I know that the point of view of Exodus as an organization is that healing is an ongoing process,
just as sanctification is. When you're born again, something happens supernaturally to take care of
your eternal destiny, but sanctification and healing are processes you will go through the rest of your life.
There are individuals in this movement who may look at it somewhat like you said. The "name it
and claim it" group. Exodus does not believe that is theologically sound, although we know God has
the power to instantly heal somebody. He often does. But we also know that most people don't get up
out of wheelchairs, although He has the power to do that. And homosexuality is different in that it is
a relational problem. It's not sexual in origin.
WS: I want to explore that idea of relationships, because some folks - like LeAnn Payne --
ultimately say that the root problem of homosexuality is idolatry, our relationship with God.
JP: I would agree with that and that goes along with how God explains it in Romans I. Paul
talks about exchanging the god we worship for the one true God -- the creature vs. the creator. I
think homosexuality has components of idolatry.
But I don't think it starts at that place; rather it ends up there. We know the real issues of
homosexuality start way back in childhood for most people. The desires are the end results of a lot of
dysfunctions -- sometimes sexual violation, molestation, peer rejection, not bonding correctly with your
own gender parental figure, abandonment. That is what is at its core. It begins with the individual
feeling alienated, not feeling loved, and lonely. Where idolatry comes is worshiping of other people in
order to get those needs met.
WS: The reason I wanted to ask about the theology of the movement is this: even though
organizations like Exodus and Focus on the Family work in this arena, and you have done a great deal
to educate the church around the issues of homosexuality, this subject is still pretty stigmatized
within the evangelical church, and it seems to me that part of the evangelical church's problems with
dealing with homosexuality is rooted in the shallowness or incompleteness of the theology of the
evangelical church. It seems to me
that sometimes it's helpful to talk about our common sinfulness, as Roman I does, and the
idolatry that we all engage in, rather than to focus on homosexuality. Homosexuality is just one way that
we display our fallen nature.
JP: That's exactly right. That is what we have been doing the last three years here at Focus on
the Family, as we have developed a department here. As a church we must get over our homophobia,
if you will, and look at this issue at God's point of view and I think by and large the church is
waking up a little bit to this issue.
WS: John, I know that you've already answered tons of questions on this, but I have to ask you
what you have learned this past year in the aftermath of the well-publicized incident in which you
went into a homosexual bar in Washington, DC.
JP: First, I have to say I began a process of coming out of homosexuality about more than 14
years ago, and for a variety of reasons became one of the more prominent individuals of this movement.
I think that was due to fact that my wife had been a lesbian. That was somewhat of an oddity. We
both had very sensational stories. So for nine years we had been married and we had been in the
public forefront and we are very vocal and thrilled that God has used us to spread this message.
But that has a down side, because it feeds your ego and your flesh and your pride and all the
things that are broken within you. When I came to work with Focus on the Family, three years ago, it
even increased the visibility even more. People wanted me to speak everywhere. I felt like a doll
that someone would wind-up and say come give your testimony, come speak here, come fly here,
come fly there. In the mean time I was feeling great about my ministry.
Now, this story isn't unlike a lot of Christian leaders who trip and fall into problems. I started
squeezing God out of my life. I started saying, "I am pretty wonderful. Everyone seems to think so." So
a year ago I wanted to escape. I wanted to escape my life. I wanted to escape everything. My
reputation. I wanted off the treadmill and I thought I wanted to go back to a gay bar. Well, of
course, because God loves me he is not going to let me go out on a leash too long and I was discovered
in there.
I have to say this past year has been the most difficult part of my life, but also the best year of
my life -- and I highly recommend it. [Laughter.] I mean I highly recommend to people to allow
the Lord to take you through brokenness. I would say for several years to God, "Lord, please do what
it takes to bring my life in total alignment with you." Now, I would be afraid to pray that
prayer, because God did and he knew exactly what I needed - a lot of humbling and re-evaluating and
re-prioritizing and realizing what was
important. But I think the greatest lesson He has shown me has been about mercy, compassion,
and His forgiveness.
Focus on the Family stood by me, and my family stood by me like glue. Dr. Dobson had us on
the radio right after this. He said that too often, Christians shoot their own wounded. He said, "We
are standing beside you and we believe in you."
WS: I heard that broadcast, and he did say that, but he wasn't soft on you
either.
JP: No. Oh, no. Dr. Dobson was not soft.
WS: He did stand by you, but, you know, he took you to the woodshed just a
bit, too.
JP: You're right. He did, and I needed that. I mean that is why he is so admired. It's been
very difficult, but it has been healing. I went back into counseling. I have been in counseling for the
past year, and I was fearful going to Exodus because I had been so prominent. I was the Exodus
chairman of the board when all of this happened, and I know I had let people down. This has been
devastating to me. I said to someone the other day that working through the shame of your behavior
is almost worst than your behavior. The shame. The residue. The effects.
So we had a meeting at Exodus. There is a day and half before the conference starts where all
the national directors gather together. I thought someone would bring it up, but since no one did, I felt
I needed the opportunity to address this crowd.
I stood up and I just lost it, because I felt like I owed these people who had supported me, or
even those who hadn't supported me. I felt that it was just a real time to exhort them that if God
has something to show you, don't wait until He has to show it to you like He did to me. I was crying,
and honestly I wasn't seeing how people were reacting to me.
People told me afterwards that it was moving for them. For me, I just felt shame lifting off me
that day and throughout the week. I felt like a little child before God again. I felt honest and real
and didn't have to hide anything, and it was probably one of the most healing times I ever had as
a Christian. I think people saw in me a vulnerability that had not been in there a long time.
WS: John, a few minutes ago we talked about how the church is not very comfortable with
the subject of homosexuality, and even among those who are comfortable talking about the topic,
there is a range of rhetorical style. Some are strident about calling it evil and have a certain militancy
in their rhetoric. Others are more pastoral. We don't hear from them as much, but that's because
the volume is a bit lower. What's the right approach?
JP: I think the best public policy on homosexuality is the power of a changed life. Dr. Dobson
has said that homosexuality is the defining issue for the church today, and you will know a lot about
a church by where they fall on the issue of homosexuality. I think we need to get past some of
the rhetoric that has alienated people. Ultimately, it's about winning people--not winning an argument.
Updated: 8 February 2008
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